The C20XE engine ...... Why?

[BlackBox]

I can't help thinking that while stripping down my 20XE how simple it all is. This is my second time to strip this lump and again I can find no issues with it ..

It's done at least 160k now, ok it has been re-bored and stuff some 12yrs ago, but it didn't need it then and it doesn't need it now.

The cam bearings on both the head and cams inc lobes are virtually like new, the bores looks freshly honed and all else is in fine fettle.

The head still isn't warped ... in fact the whole lump is still tickety boo....

Couple this with it has to be one of the easiest engine designs to work on then why oh why did Vauxhall discontinue it and start producing boat anchors .... cos that's all the XEV's and VXR engines seem to be good for. They have seriously tarnished Vauxhalls reputation when they had the solid and reliable 20XE in production for decades ...

I mean, these engine are now nearly 30yrs old and people are still hunting them down and using them !!

[Davey J]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

Cost and emmissions. They couldn't make them any cheaper than they were or more efficient in their current design. They tried with blue injectors, cat and higher fuel pressure but then ultimately failed after that. Sad really. The newer ECOTEC units aren't as strong out the box but are easily tuned to the level and XE can be at similar cost.

[DarrenH]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

allot of it is to do with the fact they latched onto the multivalve thing as a bit of a knee jerk in the late 80s. then the project got slapped in the face by european emmisions standards in the early 90s. they had an amazing engine, over engineered, great cylinder head design. but they didnt have an amazing engine, over engineered, great cylinder head design AND also be able meet emmisions standards, and produce it cheaply, and efficiently, and get it on forecourts cheaper than toyota and honda.

i agree with you, 20XE was like the last cry. can honestly see it gathering a bit of legendary status in the future like the BDA and YB, alfa twincam etc

[Pigeonrat]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

I'm a fan of all the "Family" engines, all the way from the 13S in 1979 to the 20XE, 20LET and C14/16SE engines. I've owned or driven all but the 20LET and all have been fun, strong, reliable, easy to work on and willing to rev as hard as you like, even the baby 1.2 in my old E-reg Nova. Compared to the rattly and breathless Ford CVHs and VW 8v engines of the time they're a revelation, and yes, they're a better design than Vauxhall's current output IMO. We'll gloss over the last-gasp Family engine (the Z16SE) found in the Mk4 Astra, but even there, the problem was not the engine itself but the electronics and emissions equipment they saddled it with to try and keep it going through the emissions regs. As the old saying goes, they don't build 'em like they used to...

Did you not say once that the Family engines have roots with Isuzu, Darren?

[Davey J]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

Compared to the rattly and breathless Ford CVHs and VW 8v engines of the time they're a revelation

Compared to the rattly and breathless Ford CVHs and VW 8v engines of the time they're a revelation

Agree with that to a point. Ford yes. VW no. I've owned Polos, golfs, GTI and non gti and the 8v lumps were on a par with the vauxhall stuff in terms of durability, performance and economy. The Golf was heavier than the Astra so the smaller engine'd stuff they were fitted with was never really enough 1.3 Ryders for example.

Even for a non cross-flow head design I was able to get 169bhp out of a 2litre 8v Golf on Kjet. Something Tom Stickland couldn't manage with carbs, etc on a 2litre 8v Astra for example. You could fit pretty big oversize valves to the Golf heads.

[Pigeonrat]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

Agree with that to a point. Ford yes. VW no. I've owned Polos, golfs, GTI and non gti and the 8v lumps were on a par with the vauxhall stuff in terms of durability, performance and economy. The Golf was heavier than the Astra so the smaller engine'd stuff they were fitted with was never really enough 1.3 Ryders for example.

Even for a non cross-flow head design I was able to get 169bhp out of a 2litre 8v Golf on Kjet. Something Tom Stickland couldn't manage with carbs, etc on a 2litre 8v Astra for example. You could fit pretty big oversize valves to the Golf heads.

Referring to standard engines, I'm basing that assessment partly on various Polos/basic Golfs I've driven but primarily on a 1985 Golf I owned, which could muster only 55 or 60bhp IIRC out of its 1.3 8v engine at a time when Vauxhall were achieving 75bhp out of the 1.3 Family 1 engine. Though the Golf had decent torque for its size, the Astra's engine trounced it for power, refinement and technical design in my opinion, and was a delight to do long journeys in compared to the Golf. I cannot criticise the K-Jetronic cars, partly because I like the Golf GTI of the time, but mainly because I've not had particularly extensive experience of them bar a few short drives of them. But as a standard engine design, I maintain the GM OHC engines are fundamentally better than the VW equivalent, certainly in the smaller sizes.

Of course, modifying them may be a different matter, I wouldn't know

[DarrenH]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

the small block vw engines are crossflow (comparatively aged engines, i.e same age as nova and mk2 astra). but its a flat head design, combustion chamber in the piston, the port to valve engles are 90 degree turns, transverse valves, very basic, very reliable (bronze guides as standard) but not that powerful or efficient.

unlike our engines, the small block vw bore no resemblance, design or parts commonality to the big block (1.6 up) versions

the vauxhall small block was light years head, twisted kidney chambers which brings the valves more inline with the flow of air passing through the engine, head is wider and valves are opened with rockers to separate the valves and get some decent included angles

[Davey J]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

Fair statements on the small block stuff, I'd definitely put the big block stuff on a par though. I had more experience back to back with stuff I owned with a Vauxhall badge at the same time. My SRi MK2 was no different to MK2 8vs I had (circa 12 or so if memory serves). The small block Vauxhall stuff came for me at a much later date and I'd had lots of different motors in between then.

[DarrenH]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

the only thing i would agree on is the 1.8 and 2.0 8v engines, like for like.

the 1.8 16v vw head design is bonkers. having wedged shape combustion chamber is a good idea, so the canted side is your inlet (front of engine) which effectively gives you a straight run into the cylinders, but the exhaust side is still 90 degree turn out of the chamber. and that system where the exhaust cam is driven from the crank by a normal ribbed belt, then the inlet cam is driven by chain from the exhaust cam at the opposite end of the head. germans are bonkers !

the GM 16v pentroof twin cam head is in another time zone regards design, efficiency, power, tunability. infinately superior. and the motronic, plus inlet system, plus helmholtz resonator, they managed to get more torque over the entire rev range compared to the 8v predecessor which vw never achieved

[Davey J]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

Yeah I never did quite get the cam set up on the valver. I never pulled one apart personally so never got to see it guts and all. I owned one very briefly and didn't like it. Felt gutless and needed the knackers revving off it. Bit like the 1.8 16v MK1 Clios. Had two of those and they were great on a flat road but show them a hill and they bogged down due to a total lack of torque.

[BlackBox]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

I've had a MK1 golf GTI and it was a great car to drive, handled better than the GTE too, performance wise? Don't think it was as quick even though it was a lot lighter .....

Still prefer the GTE though, a lot more refined ....


But my point was, the 20XE engine was a pinnacle for Vaux, they seem to have lost the plot since then and Vaux is certainly not a name for reliability now is it?

[Astra Dan]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

Totally agree. I run my GTE and old 1.3L Mk2 Astras almost daily and both are utterly amazing, 20 and 23 years, 208 and 152k miles after they rolled out of the factory. Keep the fluids clean and they just keep on. The XE I think has an easier life, it's very hard to snatch the wrong gear and bog it down in the light Mk2 Astra shell, and has a rev limit to save it at the top end.
The 1.3 on the other hand is laden down with half the power, and has no rev limit to save it. I've regularly revved it straight off the counter on many occasions, it will do over 85 in 3rd. Sometimes I want to take the bottom end apart to inspect it just to see how worn it is. Given that it's quiet, burns or leaks no oil and still has all it's horses, I'd guess not much!
We changed the oil pump on Sharon's 1.2 Nova yesterday. So stupidly simple and easy access, it was almost funny. Crank pulley came undone with a quick squirt from the windy gun.
Mind you, I have a X20XEV in the Mk4 and has covered over 25k in the last two years with no issues. I wonder how much reliability has to do with owners and maintenance?

Anyway, I've rambled a bit there, sorry!

[BlackBox]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

I walk around my local breakers and the one thing that strikes me is just how many new vaux in great condition fill the place. Must be 1/4 of all the cars in the whole yard.

All the same issues, engine gone, replacement car cheaper than fixing .....

[DarrenH]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

if it makes you feel better i was underneath a 55 plate mazda 3 yesterday which has 37,000 miles on the clock. rust everywhere, rear subframe rusty, paint being pushed off the sills by more rust. shocking build quality ! some of it is the owner, but most of it is the car ! just reinforces that stuff isnt made like it used to be, its all about making it past the 3 year waranties these days.

[BlackBox]

Re: The C20XE engine ...... Why?

True, I was under a 4yr old jag recently and my old Blackbox looked better, absolutely evreywhere was brown, like no paint had been used at all .... I mean everything !!

Even the alloy bits were furry !!