1989 gte rebuild

[BenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

great info on page 90! i guessed ben was just using X20 for the underdog factor !

theres been a few C22XEs made over the years on MIG, even some C23XE (20xe head, X22 block, 88mm pistons) not including insane swede mentioned. the limiting factor is the stroke and rods, as bens picture perfectly show. it seems counterproductive to start with a strong revvy engine, make it less inclined to rev just for a bit of extra swept capacity. and if you are gonna have to spend money on stronger rods et all just to out-engineer those flaws, may aswell just use the cash more wisely and chase the power figures with 2 litre capacity through the ordinary tried and tested 20XE tuning methods (in those cases)

i like this short stroke, long rod, tall block idea, its smarter and using parts bin items makes it just as viable.

Cheers, yeah and the cost I went x20. It was meant to be a cheap engine to get it running lol, but more tunable than a seh. It was only cause it came up local and had lots of bits I went for it, trouble is it had a few problems like the bit sliced off the block Hence using a old 8v block I had. Then the other trouble and money on the pump have taken it out of the cheap runner parts and into sillyness

If the cams had not come up cheap it would of been more standard, but at least they are ok as is the pump so can be re used.

I had always intended to build a better engine after I'd used it for while, but as the x22 came up cheap (you can see a theme here) I went for it as well.

Anyhow must pull out my old engine today and start getting the tempory replacment in lol...

Day 3 engine no3 to strip!

[tonka666]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

I wasn't saying you were any good mr myagi What i mean is an eco head de-restricted and with a little work is as almost good as a standard 20xe head just doesn't flow quite as well but its better to be different!

Its all about snake fist cats claw dude

http://youtu.be/9nZ5A3uGVE4

[BlackBox]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

great info on page 90!

I'd missed that post !!! Thanks .... this sort of stuff I do fond very interesting ""

[DarrenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

the eco head is narrower, shallower included valve angle, so greater port to valve throat angle. or basically the air has to turn a tighter angle to get from the inlet manifold to the combustion chamber. if you got an X20 head to the same size valves, and port size/shape, there would probably still be a measurable difference in favour of the C20XE head on a flow bench. but that ignores everything else working as a total package, manifold, head, cams, valves, ex manifold, exhaust, management

[BlackBox]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

Why can't you deck the block 4mm?

Then with a 2.0 86mm throw crank in to check the heights, I knew what it should be but at least this confirms it
With the 20xe rod and piston left it's 9mm down the bore at TDC and with the x22xe it's 4mm roughly down the bore.


x22xe by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

So I think I have a few options on that front...
I dont think I can deck 4mm out the block so thats out the question, a little maybe but not that much.
So either pistons with a higher compression height, or even longer rods. After a little googling I see the Insane Swede chap used a volvo rod and shorter compression height piston for his C23let, but seeing as I'm not keeping the long stroke I wont need both.

But after much looking into catalogues it does seem that volvo rods might be a option if the info is correct.
The big end diameter is the same,
The little end is 2mm bigger, but I think maybe that could be rebushed to take it down to use XER pistons for example?
The rod is 4mm longer
The big end is a little wider, but could prehaps be machined down.
The little end width I dont know as yet.
They are common and steels should be off the shelf.

I need to find one or a set to have a measure up, I think a trip to big volvo breaker near by might be worth it.

It's all long term plans but I need to start thinking about it now so I can plan and budget for it.

[tonka666]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

I agree the c20 head is better from my limited knowledge in the area. It is one of the best for flow but how much difference will it really make? It can surly only be a few bhp difference between a similarly tuned c20 and x20 say running 200bhp? But i guess the gains are higher depending on the state of tune? I have the books on my chritmas list......might stop asking so many questions then

[BenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

Why can't you deck the block 4mm?

I'll end up with naff all holding the cylinders to block!

I agree the c20 head is better from my limited knowledge in the area. It is one of the best for flow but how much difference will it really make? It can surly only be a few bhp difference between a similarly tuned c20 and x20 say running 200bhp? But i guess the gains are higher depending on the state of tune? I have the books on my chritmas list......might stop asking so many questions then

The eco head should make better midrange, thats what will pull you round and out the bends tbh. But yes they are smaller valves but also as Darren says it's the whole package. Think of it like this 30 quid for a new head, easy to find and not porous either. If anything the valves in a xe are a little too big, unless you tune them up.

The Astra G opc XER engine is a very simliar spec to the early XE, makes more power as standard and meets modern emission standards. So there has to be some potential there.

I cant experiment with different portings say, with head studs that are reusable. If it dont work I can bin the head and get a another. I've got 4 heads now anyway!

[DarrenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

would need to be more than 4mm to get the piston above deck height as standard too.

[DarrenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

p.s saw this and thought of you ! (oil circuit for crank)

crankoil.jpg

[BlackBox]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

I'll end up with naff all holding the cylinders to block!

That might cause a problem then ... so like you say, longer rods ... the 2.4l has 100mm rods stroke .... I wonder if it has longer rods as well?
KB240 Isuzu pickup ...

[BenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

p.s saw this and thought of you ! (oil circuit for crank)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12484[/ATTACH]

Lol cheers, I already know the layout in my head. I suspect I know what has gone wrong, but will strip it after dinner and measure it up.

Edit...

It also shows very well why No3 tends to go on a trackday, as the thrust bearing I suspect lets more oil out and with a surge at the same time get munched.

That might cause a problem then ... so like you say, longer rods ... the 2.4l has 100mm rods stroke .... I wonder if it has longer rods as well?
KB240 Isuzu pickup ...

Probley has, but how strong are they? And can you find a better replacement, needs looking into..

would need to be more than 4mm to get the piston above deck height as standard too.

Indeed.. The plan is to get them flat to the deck, then skim the deck to get the correct height. I would perfer a fresh surface for the gasket anyhow, the place where the gasket failed is ok for a normal build. But why bother risking it for a few quid for a skim.

[BenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

Day 3 engine no3 out and stripped, yawn


Yawn! by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Is there really this many bits on my engine...

too many bits by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Anyhow over to the problems..

problems by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

problems by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Had a really good look now it's all out, no2 is a little picked up as well. After checking the rods my dot's line up, but if you run your nail round the inside of the rod you can feel join on 1 and 2. I suspect the caps are mixed up since I got them, also they are a little tight side clearence wise to the crank on 1 and 2. Combine that with a tighter tolerence with the new bearings the oil could get in but had nowhere to go! It's not pressure it needs but flow to cool them.

So 2 two things I should of checked the caps better, and run more clearence. A little more clearence is not a bad thing on a high revving engine anyhow, especially with a higher flow pump like the late xev one. Just wants another thou or two really, just need to measure them for oval now to see how far out they might of been and the other good ones.

Anyhow onto the x22xe and x20xev pistons just for interest, they are different and have a deeper bowl in the x22xe ones and a deeper valve cutout other than that they are the same.


x22xe x20xev by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Also I added some more weights on page 90

[tonka666]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

CD collection looks promising

[BenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

CD collection looks promising

Lol Workshop cd's up loud, with the fire lit and kettle on...

It's no wonder I get sweet FA done all day out there!


Anyhow today's update, after much googling for engine part sizes for the x22xe block, a very long dog walk and then a trip to mac D's lol.


I cleaned up the replacement engine.....

[BenH]

Re: 1989 gte rebuild

I was looking at the box I got with the replacement engine today, just to see what I had..
F18W with 3.94 final drive! Proper result and the hydro release bearing should fit a f16/20 ect if I go down that route in the future.

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

So came up with a plan, strip the f18 for the final drive and 5th gear. Then mix it up with a spare F20 I had, I'd not wanted to strip my 'good' F16 just in case I need a spare but the F20 was untested as it's not from one of my cars.

So pulled out the diff then popped off the 5th gear cluster, I needed to put a little tension with a puller then heated the gear gently with the oxy set it made a pop and slid off.

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Then pulled out the cluster the F18 is next to my spare F16C cluster in the pic, just to check if they looked the same. I gave it a check over and it all looked good so stripped that down.

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Then did the same on the spare F20, that too looked good if not just a little dirty

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

That gave me in total 2.5 gearboxs on the floor in bits.... So many bits...

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Had a little compair up of the bits, F18W left and F20 3.55 right.

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Just for interest a F16 F18 and F20 diff, the 16 and 18 are the same the F20 is much more meaty. Not that matters with a LSD.
Also inside they look the same really, other than the F20 having more roller in one bearing than the F16. But the same bearings are used in F20/18 and they are all interchangable. The main difference I can see between them is the case having more ribs on the F20 and the diff.

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

So started with the F18W output shaft, and built that back up with the F20 1-4 gears after cleaning and inspecting them for wear and damage.

F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr


F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr

Just need to clean up the case and a couple of little bits, then pop it all back together. I think I will be seeing cogs when I go to sleep tonight !


F16 F18 F20 Gearbox Hybrid by ben a.k.a me, on Flickr