Simple engine mods...

[Artis]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Hello!

Is this good option?

Putting Weber 40 DCOE onto a 2.0 (XE) engine. It will gain more power than stock XE intake? Is it better than stock? Apart from the webbers, the engine is totally standard.
Any advise will be greatfully.

edited:

its not a good option.

[crocket81]

Re: Simple engine mods...

My bro uses a red top in his outlaw hotrod, standard crank,steel rods, arps,accrilite pistons, standard head no porting at all(in the rules) only machining done on head was on cam train( so the cams could rotate)pair of very lairy camshafts (catcams) solid lifters,standard valves,pair of dcoe weber 45's and running on mbe management. 224.9 bhp at the flywheel 190lbs torque.A very powerfull engine for the mods,Wish he'd give it to me to slot in my gte!

[kickastra]

Re: Simple engine mods...

i dissagree. on a like for like engine youd expect 10-15bhp MORE from the throttle body setup and be infiniately more driveable. i'd argue that a 45mm throttle body has significantly more flow area than the equievelant sized carb barrel with 36/38mm venturi fitted.

i would only consider carbs where cost or entry regs were the limiting factors.

for the original question, first thing would definately be an exhaust manifold upgrade. the cylinder head will flow up to 220bhp in factory trim. standard head and cams are capable of flowing 200bhp worth of air. standard lifters will tollerate up to 8000 rpm. the standard bottom end will safely rotate quick enough to process 200bhp worth of air (with rod bolt upgrade) all assuming well built zero mileage engine (not one lifted out a 150k cav gsi)

thats not to say none of it is worth upgrading, it all accumulative, but as a base package its easy to see the smart money is on drastic induction upgrades for the biggest significant increase in performance, in one glot.

Agreed.45mm throttle body would flow more air than 36mm choke, but on a like for like basis, ultimate power would be very similar. Having driven on carbs and then on throttle bodies the driveability of properly mapped TB's is fantastic. Still, on a bang-for-buck basis a pair of sidedrafts is still good value for money.

[DarrenH]

Re: Simple engine mods...

As far as out and out power is concerned, carbs and throttle bodies are very close.

i dissagree. on a like for like engine youd expect 10-15bhp MORE from the throttle body setup and be infiniately more driveable. i'd argue that a 45mm throttle body has significantly more flow area than the equievelant sized carb barrel with 36/38mm venturi fitted.

i would only consider carbs where cost or entry regs were the limiting factors.

for the original question, first thing would definately be an exhaust manifold upgrade. the cylinder head will flow up to 220bhp in factory trim. standard head and cams are capable of flowing 200bhp worth of air. standard lifters will tollerate up to 8000 rpm. the standard bottom end will safely rotate quick enough to process 200bhp worth of air (with rod bolt upgrade) all assuming well built zero mileage engine (not one lifted out a 150k cav gsi)

thats not to say none of it is worth upgrading, it all accumulative, but as a base package its easy to see the smart money is on drastic induction upgrades for the biggest significant increase in performance, in one glot.

[teej]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Aye, I really need to get them set up properly on the Nova, but as it probably won't be out for a while it's not high on my list of priorities.

Last I looked (although this was a couple of years ago) carbs were getting more expensive, as Weber were out of business. This might be wrong info, though. I have an inlet manifold for XE around somewhere, as well as a brand new set of green injectors.

Tom - WD has come out, old suspension came off, and found that tin-worm has had a nibble. It's nothing major, but couple that with enlarging the turret holes to fit eccentric top mounts and it's not something I have time to sort, so I think I'll have to pull my Cadwell entry.

[kickastra]

Re: Simple engine mods...

As far as out and out power is concerned, carbs and throttle bodies are very close. The TB's gain by being able to optimise them across the entire rev range - in other words they make for a more driveable car. In rallying/trackracing/trackdays you tend to be in the upper end of the rev range all the time, and if you concentrate the tuning of the carbs to this range you might not be dead on for tootling along in traffic but then life's a compromise anyway. We had an XE on carbs before the QED engine and it was great. Ran a bit rich low down but then again, we don't do much rallying below 3000rpm!

[teej]

Re: Simple engine mods...

I agree - carbs could be an improvement. That's what the engine I had built for pre-93 was supposed to be running on, and also what the Nova's 1600 is on, and that wasn't too slow in a straight line. Drinks fuel, and isn't too handy low down the range (partly the 'box needs swapping to something more suitable I wasn't out of 4th along top straight at Brands, and nudging 115 before braking for Paddock) , but cam isn't very harsh and it was holding it's own with the CRX's, so I'm not too unhappy.

Or you could try the NSCC airbox I've got - basically BTCC super-prod before it was called that. No idea if it had much effect, but it'd be nice to know. A couple of people have wanted to buy it, but I've no idea what to ask for it.

[kickastra]

Re: Simple engine mods...

5.7.6 This says IF the fuel injection is retained blah blah blah. Inlet manifolds are also free. I would go with carbs and ignition management a la DTA or similar.You should get very close to what is possible with throttle bodies.

[Austinspace75]

Re: Simple engine mods...

These are the engine regs:

5.7 Engine:
5.7.1 The engine must be located in the original position.
5.7.2 The original standard production cylinder block may be used or an alternative
manufactured by the same manufacturer to the original production specification including
but not limited to material, bore, number of main bearings and number of main bearing
fasteners must be used and may be re-bored up to a maximum of plus 0.065".
5.7.3 The cylinder head(s) must be the standard production component or an alternative
manufactured by the same manufacturer as the original production component to original
production specification including but not limited to material, number of valves, ports and
plugs, same plug angle, valve angle/port configuration and operating type and fixed
directly onto the original standard production cylinder block without modification.
5.7.4 The crankshaft is free, but the original stroke and number of bearings must be retained.
5.7.5 Camshafts, camshaft bearings and drive systems are free, provided that they remain in
their original positions and remain the sole means of operating the valves.
5.7.6 Induction.
Fuel Injection is only permitted if fitted in production prior to 1st January 1994. If this
system is retained the method of triggering and operation should remain as fitted in
production or homologated for Appendix J Group N. The plenum chamber is free but the
number of throttles must not exceed the number fitted in production or homologated
before 1st January 1994. The fuel injectors must be in the original location and must not
exceed the original number fitted in production or homologated before 1st January 1994.
For clarity, this means that aftermarket throttle bodies are prohibited.
Air filter and air filter box may be removed and air ducting/trunking is free provided it does
not extend beyond the periphery of the bodywork. Anti surge pipes are permitted as also
are return pipes from the carburettor/injection system.
5.7.7 Radiators are free but must remain in their original location.
5.7.8 Oil coolers and additional water radiators are permitted provided they are located within
the periphery of the bodywork.
5.7.9 The exhaust system is free subject to MSA requirements.
5.7.10 Dry sump systems are prohibited. Wet sumps may be increased in volume, baffled and/or
gated to provide protection from oil starvation or surge.
5.7.11 The ignition system is free, however the firing order must not be changed.
5.7.12 Forced induction is not permitted unless fitted in production before 1st January 1994.
Boost pressure must not be adjustable from within the habitacle. When fitting of a
turbocharger is permitted by these Regulations it shall be the standard production or
homologated component and must not be modified save for the fitting of a 360 degree
thrust bearing to improve reliability. The boost pressure setting is free. Intercoolers may
only be fitted if used in production and must be the standard production unit or one which
exactly matches the volume of the Ford Sierra 4x4 intercooler (part number tba.)
The organisers reserve the right to introduce or modify the size of intake restrictors,
and/or intercooler requirements for forced induction engines.
5.7.13 Inlet and exhaust manifolds are free.
5.7.14 It is permissible to remove metal from original cylinder blocks and heads.

[kickastra]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Question is then, what are you allowed to change/modify??

[Austinspace75]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Tim - Cheers mate! that sounds like it could be a good afternoons fun... I'd like to know what its delivering as it is, so I might well take you up on that sometime in the summer. Will let you know. Thankyou again. Will also give you a bell sometime soon for a catch up etc.. in the meantime empty a can of WD40 over your racer and get your entry in for Cadwell. ;-)

Kickastra - Nice story. Certainly confirms the validity other advice given in this thread. I could go some way to a similar set up, but my series prohibits aftermarket throttle bodies.

[kickastra]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Having blown up our QED built engine, I put (as a stop gap initially, but 2 years later it is still there delivering the goods) a standard XE engine in the car with the following:
ARP rod bolts
Uprated exhaust manifold - I think it is a Janspeed unit
Jenvey direct-to-head throttle bodies
DTA management
It was a second-hand engine from the UK - there was no porting, port matching,cams,pistons or anything else. In fact the only thing I did to it was change the rod bolt and timing belt (good thing because it was timed wrong).I was able to do times very close (within a second or two) of what I got out of the QED engine. Also I deliberately set the shift light to 7000rpm and tried to stick to it. Basically it was an engine that went like the clappers from idle to redline.

[teej]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Tom - if you want to do some back to back RR testing then you're welcome to borrow my Walden (Clark Motorsport) manifold and exhaust, and another manifold I have (possibly Magnex), and the set of green injectors I have lying around, to see if there's any differences to be had.

Although you're a good way away from me, there's a good RR near here - Steve Greenald's place - and I'd be happy to give you a hand with swaps if the timing is right.

Agree with you about SBD - whenever I've spoken to them I've had the feeling that they're up for the hard sell, especially when I had a set of their old NSCC XE cams, and all they wanted to do was sell me random bits instead of tell me what upgrades an engine needd to run them effectively. Nice guys in person, though - met a couple of them with a demo Lo-Cater-Field at Steve's place.

[Austinspace75]

Re: Simple engine mods...

Still a good idea. I got some reconditioned (and flow tested) ones last year when I thought I had injector trouble... turned out to be the electrical connectors were missing their spring clips and the whole plastic conduit had lifted up and away from the injectors. Didn't notice it until I had the injector rail half off.. which was really the first time I'd had to remove anything from the engine since I'd bought and raced the car for the previous year or so. I'm loathed to do much to it at all to be honest, its just such a good unit as it is.

[KEV]

Re: Simple engine mods...

If they hadn't already been done then getting the injectors cleaned will potentially restore some missing factory horses.

True to a degree, but I'd flow check them first. There's no point in paying to have them cleaned if they don't need it.